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The Parramatta Eels may have finally arrived at rock bottom with a performance against the Manly Sea Eagles that could only be described as insipid and woeful. The 56-10 capitulation saw everything that has hamstrung the Eels over the last month become magnified to a far greater scope.
Sixties and Forty20 try to make sense of the disastrous outcome which saw players, coaches and systems collapse wholesale, thereby catapulting the Eels into 6th place on the ladder. The catastrophic failures at all levels for the Blue & Gold is on the table this week as the plight of Parramatta somehow worsens with the finals just around the corner.
The boys freely acknowledge that a loss of this magnitude is going to elicit a hugely emotional response from a fanbase desperate to see the team turn it around. All we ask is that everyone please keep the personal attacks, be it on players, coaches or eachother, out of it. Discuss tactical audibles, roster moves and personnel changes as you want and need to but don’t turn the comment section into a battlefield.
You guys need to stop blindly supporting the coach because he lets you attending training sessions
Thank you for taking the time to listen to the entirety of a 53min podcast just 13min after it went live. It really means the world to me.
Now, if you had actually listened to said podcast you would know that both myself and Sixties levelled a deserved portion of blame at the coaching staff which shockingly includes Brad Arthur. In fact, we have made it patently clear for several weeks now that this downward spiral will quite possibly cost Arthur and others their jobs.
Imagine criticising a podcast you haven’t listened to for doing something it clearly didn’t do.
Amazing.
Karlito or whoever you are. You probably won’t read or respond to this, much as you obviously didn’t listen to the pod, or any of our recent pods, yet feel you can criticise something that you know zero about.
Here’s more examples of your ignorance.
Firstly, anyone can attend training.
Secondly, I choose to give up my time to do so and then to write about it during preseason to provide updates for fellow supporters.
Thirdly, I don’t write about it during the season as it is match prep.
Finally, I find it ridiculous that I’ve wasted my time defending my support of the club, to such ignorance.
Good morning Karlito.
Do you realise that the guys report and base opinions on what they see with their own eyes?
Noone at the club has been above their criticism. If you took the time to read or listen, you may realise that.
Just as you have your opinion, everyone, including the TCT contributors, are allowed an opinion. Sometimes, those opinions will differ from yours. I dont always agree with them either, however, there are ways to express it constructively.
Yes, the current situation sucks. I get that. I understand wanting to vent and blame. Hell, I probably did that enough last night on various outlets. But I’m not going to shoot off at these guys who give their time to provide a resource that us fans are lucky to have. The situation is not their fault. I appreciate what they provide on a regular basis, in and out of season.
Anyway, I hope your day is better than last night was. After all, we all support the same club. Sometimes we need to remember that.
Great podcast very raw and real. Everyone knows Arthur’s time has been up for a while he’s on borrowed time.
The club needs to make the tough decision and save Arthur from himself.
Contract talks this time of year is a dumb move,
Time for B.A. to dump his favourites if he is still coaching next week.
Max, BA has no part of planning contract talks. It’s why we have a head of football and a recruitment manager.
By the way, I’m all for blokes out of form being held accountable.
Yes I know that, The club doing contracts ATM is the wrong time.
Cheers Max. I guess it’s turned out to be bad timing with Gutho, but I reckon there’s a bloke who made that so. The alternative is, getting all of them done either in a small post season window or after November 1. They had quietly signed a few players without fuss before now, but someone wanted to again play Gutho’s dramas out in the media. I reckon that’s burnt a bridge or two.
I said it in the post grade games but if Brad wants to save his job he needs to punt Kidwell immediately. How can you keep a defensive coach who’s team literally can’t number up correctly on basic backline plays. Souths and Manly did’nt throw anything fancy at us. It was just simple backline spreads that every team does at training.
If I was David Kidwell I would stand down immediately due to embarrassment. Brad’s blind loyalty to his cronies will end up costing him his job.
Clive, I’ve reached frustration point with our defensive systems and everyone is accountable there. As I have said recently, if we are at the point where the system doesn’t work, and with different players and combinations, then it was either deeply flawed to begin with or your squad isn’t capable of defending to it. Regardless of the why, the “easiest answer” must be to come up with a different process.
Defence.
I’m over watching our defence getting out flanked constantly. It’s worse when watching at the ground. I see the overlap and know the opposition will score in 2 or 3 tackles.
As I said in the pod, whether the system is flawed, or whether we don’t have the players to play to it, it’s not working and being dismantled with absurd ease. The defence is indefensible.
Thanks guys, just finished the show and found it as Forty said, cathartic. I really don’t know where we go from here and I found Brad’s presser last night really alarming. I’ve backed him all the way and am still happy to for 2022 but things need to change around him for next year. I have felt for a while that we are like The North Sydney sides of the 90’s. Really solid but lacking that killer edge when all the chips are on the table. At least they made preliminary finals consistently. I’m not disappointed, I’m angry!
I think we all feel that anger Greg.
I too am a rusted on supporter of over 50 years and know only too well the emotional roller coaster that comes with supporting the eels.
There have been plenty of occasions over the years when the eels have fielded inferior teams to their opponents only to be overpowered in the last 15-20 minutes as ability overrides desire, but in these last 3 weeks there has been little desire and less effort from a much superior squad.
All of the hard work that has gone into a pretty decent roster that offered so much hope and expectation has evaporated so so quickly. Record memberships on the back of what was perceived as a competitive squad is now in ruins.
BA has been terrific for the eels and his contribution and efforts to date can’t be ignored and shouldn’t be forgotten. The fact that he bleeds blue and gold makes it a more difficult conversation, but the fact remains that instead of the last month being the stepping stone towards the finals it’s been a free-fall into the depths of the also-rans.
Over the last 3 weeks I’ve watched the games almost without any emotion as the realisation quickly hits that the same glaring problems that have been present for so long remain. How many more times do we have to see a simple shift along an opposing backline result in a two or three man overlap. How many more times will a single error be too much for the eels to overcome. How many more times will we see players go rogue and ignore team structures.
It isn’t the fault of any one player but it is clear that regardless of who is in the team the same problems exist. That has to be down to the coaching staff and if that can’t be sorted do you move on the coaches or the players. Which is less disruptive in achieving the desired goal?
From a players roster perspective the introduction of new players each year around the core group is essential in improving the squad depth and competition for positions. Some may argue that that has also been the case in the coaching ranks as well, but Arthur, Kidwell and Murphy have held their roles for some time now and the same problems remain. That simply can’t be the case going forward.
Injuries and suspensions certainly won’t help their cause and the last 2 games against the storm and panthers could be bloodbaths that make BA’s position untenable if it’s not already. If he survives I can’t see it being with his current assistants.
Many thanks to the effort and commitment you guys give to this site.
Thanks Trapped. As you suggest, it’s not just a couple of ordinary games, it’s a stunning slide into passionless performances. Difficult times.
As I mentioned on Twitter, I follow TCT for the considered, constructive discussions on Parra. I think some expect league commentary to be all about acting like a third rate Paul Kent (the first rate one is bad enough) with needless conflict and biff. And anyone who listens to the podcast can hear hear the frustration and despair that we all share along with some well considered criticism.
I have no idea what the solution is. Even if change is needed in the coaching ranks then who? I just don’t see the depth in coaching even if you include Bennett (let’s not hire him). It would be great to unearth someone like Bellamy or Robbo. But I don’t see that with the current group of usual suspects (unless there is a Super League coach that may be worth looking at) or a gamble is made with a promising lower grade or assistant coach.
Thanks Shaun. Another concern is that if the key players in the group have switched off, the reality is that it will remain mostly unchanged moving into 2022.
Yep. Some seem to have lost interest. Maybe, as others have said, it is time to throw some caution to the wind and just play footy for the fun of it. Anything to find some confidence.
I’m for that Shaun.
Interesting discussion guys. Yes, with no bounce back from the team it’s difficult to know if they have a path forward. Here is my question. You both mention lack of resilience, dumb play, poor effort, and the possibility some players need to be dropped. But … can any of those be a solution IF the defensive and attacking systems are not up to par? Teams are easily exploiting the condensed defence and the team is constantly on the back foot, which must harm confidence and belief? Ball in hand they are so conservative out of their own end that teams gang tackle them, which must harm endurance? In the red zone it’s all crash play and block play and the predictability is both easily countered but possibly robs them of a sense of fun play? Translation: if you’re poorly coached, is the rest a domino effect?
Well you put player A in that position and he doesn’t execute so you put player B there and then player C and they all can’t execute, Are they all not getting it or perhaps, just perhaps it’s not the players but the systems that are at fault. Are the systems adequate and they are just not being communicated properly? Or is there merit in suggesting that the present coaching staff haven’t evolved to be able to present structures that challenge top teams?
Whatever it is, Poor BA is going to be the one on the chopping block. A hell of a nice man but he understands the business.
I’ve had my say on our defensive systems. And the problem can just as easily be that those further infield from the edge aren’t doing their job. But the fact remains that either the players can’t play to the system or the system is flawed. Either way, the system has to be changed.
As I said in the pod, if the defensive systems don’t work, for whatever reason, they have to be changed. That is down to the coaches. As for the attack. I have t seen training for a couple of months. But what they are producing now in attack bares zero resemblance to what the team was throwing at the opposition earlier this season.
I reckon you’ve nailed the impact that the back peddling in defence is doing to confidence and belief, and I’d add energy. That has a compounding effect on the attack. No energy, no belief, poor decisions, hesitancy.
No part of the team works in isolation. Because the flow on from an attack that doesn’t challenge is the opposition don’t have to work hard to hold out our attack. They then have more energy for their own attack and the cycle worsens.
Always a good show. We are all looking forward to the Cows match so that, just perhaps, we may find out mojo but if (shock horror) the cows put us to the sword, I fear that the following matches may just break some records and completely demoralise the club. Unfortunately heads will role and those heads will undoubtedly be the coaching staff as sad as it is but we all agree that it’s just not working and you can’t sack the whole team whereas those knifes out for BA are now ready to go.
It’s not a revelation that an identical performance will result in a comfortable win for the Cows, or for any team. That’s the reality.
I listened to the podcast and welcome the insights around the strategies around defense and limited attack and see that the guys have certainly not shied away from making the coaching staff accountable.
However, the form slump is just a capsule of the larger picture at Parramatta. The guys might not like hearing this & I know the talk of development pathways has only been identified in the past 3 years but, the development, identification and nurturing of young players has been a total disaster under ba’s 8 year tenure.
BA and his staff have failed to bring through a substantial amount of players. 8 years and only a handful of players have come through the system from one of the greatest Jnr bases in nsw.
It’s a disaster, a disgrace and ba & his team are totally accountable for the lack of development.
For this point only, a massive broom must be driven through the coaching staff starting from BA immediately sacked on the spot, along with his two assistants and Jnr development team
Not acceptable..Disgraceful
Jim Beam, thanks for the listen and taking the time to reply. I don’t agree with what you’re saying regarding BA’s role with the juniors, but I’ve written on pathways many times – and I was very critical about the retention processes in one post that was one of the most read in the history of this site. I was particularly annoyed by the failure to retain Stefano. This is not the place to debate that, but there have been good juniors progress to NRL during BA’s time, there are players still emerging and continuing to emerge through pathways, and I’d suggest that Stefano is the only recent major loss.
Both Souths and Manly had suffered back to back thrashings this year and both were in significant ruts only to turn things around within 3 weeks. The commentators wrote both off at the time saying they couldn’t win the comp. How wrong they were.
I actually give us more of a chance of digging ourselves out of this hole now than I did before the Manly game. Whilst ever a top 4 spot was desperately being held on to, the pressure was going to compound negatively. We are a confidence team whether we like it or not. Confidence can return as quickly as it disappears.. see the above mentioned examples from this season.
Now no one is expecting us to fire another shot this season. Everyone, including our opposition, are expecting us to fold. But what if we don’t? What if we only scrape into the finals but get a win in the first week? Without the shackle of top 4 expectations might we see the fluid and free wheeling we were only 6 weeks ago? With nothing to lose and no one considering us a premiership threat, strangely I think that suits us better. But there are some caveats.
The players haven’t lost their ability. They’ve lost their confidence in themselves and each other. If (and it is a BIG if) that can be recaptured, we will still play finals and with some luck on the injury front we still could have close to a full strength squad.
It’s also worth remembering this was how South’s season played out late last year, a bad run of form leading in to the finals – key players in shocking touch. They jagged an unlikely win against the Roosters in the last round and were down by 14-0 against Newcastle in their first final before they suddenly remembered how to play again. They went within 1 unlucky bounce of making the Grand Final. The Cowboys in 2019 without Thurston is another example of what I’m feeling here.
We need to beat the Cows next week to assure 6th position on the ladder, but no harm can come from a rotating resting the bulk of the starting 13 players from last night over the next two weeks. From this point on its about reloading for that first final. Freshening up any players carrying niggles (including Gutho) Dropping (for a week) the likes of Mika to make a statement. Trusting that they haven’t lost their ability as individuals, but also the trust in each other that was there only 6 weeks ago. Moses/Dylan, Joey Lussick and Waqa should be the only exceptions here as they may not need the time off (all have had significant time on the sidelines over past 3-4 months).
Phil Gould said last night we are further away from a premiership that at any point since 1986. He’s right. But in a strange way, that could be the recipe. We traditionally play best as underdogs. It’s still a good group of players, who have the ability to beat any team on their day and with no expectations on their shoulders and absolutely nothing to lose.
It ain’t over yet. Let’s see how the next 2 months pan out.
Adam, I really appreciate your positivity in this. I was talking to a mate this morning and reflecting on how the finals is a new competition, and how teams like the Sharks and Brisbane have limped badly into finals series and then found the energy and form to win a title.
On the basis of exposed form, I wouldn’t wildly suggest such a turn around exists in the Eels as last night was new levels of diabolical.
However, it still lies within the players to find what they were producing before. If they want to.
Diabolical, disgusting, putrid, embarassing, disappointing, I can cop losses, but the sheer lack of effort, dishing out the same woeful defensive structures week in week out. Clearly neither coach or players don’t have the answers, players don’t want to play as a team, no pride in the jersey. No respect for the club, fans or themselves/each other. Where to from here??? Which player in the shed would stand up and say I deserve to be here with an new extended contract…if I was in the recruitment office… not many, only a couple. Game plan, defensive structure is the on coach, attitude and effort is on the player. How do we fans defend being labelled pretenders…it’s hard, so hard.
I’m so cut up right now boys, as we all are, stay safe n stay strong all.
I know where you’re coming from Ben. We love that jersey. The coaches have to wear the defensive structures and team selections.
By the way, everyone knows the passion that BA has for the club, regardless of whether you’re a fan of his or not. I can’t possibly imagine his pain at watching what he must surely have seen as no pride in the jersey. I’ll be interested to see who he has faith in this week. He’s kept the faith in players so often in the past but right now some are not deserving.
Guys, I think you’ve still got it wrong. BA loves to talk about effort, but as Gus points out, you don’t get extra credit for effort, that is expected, it is a prerequisite for possessing an NRL contract. At what point does BA focus on execution ? The players are I think, simply gassed with BA’s all effort, all brawn no brains approach. Even during the week all he could focus on was chasing collisions. I mean, after 8 years surely there has to be more depth to his “coaching” than that ? I look at Waqa Blake and his unbelievable athletic power simply going to waste for 3 years now. At no point has there been an identifiable plan to utilise that ability by getting quick, early ball to him. Ironically the last month when we’ve been horrible we’ve actually got some ball to him and he has looked dangerous. When Gutho has been getting smashed in the back field there’s been no discernible plan to bring some diversity to getting out of there. Even simple things like teaching players how to pass properly out of dummy half if they happen to find themselves in there on the last. I’m so tired of seeing guys like Fergo or Waqa or Sivo finding themselves at dummy half and then looking up and Mitch Moses or Dylan Brown are standing at first receiver 30m away and they throw the inevitable slow harbour bridge pass and then MM gets mobbed by the kick pressure. You guys have spent a fair amount of time at training, have you ever seen them doing real fundamental skills training ? Because in spite of having a roster chock full of tough athletic talent, our fundamentals are barely NSW Cup standard. When can we expect BA to address our right edge defence ? Who does the bulk of the hands on teaching at training, BA or the staff ?
Brett, that’s quite a long response, and I’ve been trying my best to get to as many replies as I can on a day when I’d rather do anything but talk footy.
Here goes:
Effort – if you saw anything resembling effort last night I didn’t see it. Some effort and passion would be a damned fine starting point, don’t you reckon?.
Passing out of dummy half – every session. Every year. So work that out when blokes can’t do it.
Fundamental skills – outside of preseason, generally in the first session of every week and then during every extras, with all coaches working with individuals and small groups.
The Joey sessions – after good signs early in the season, the players seem to have forgotten all of their work with him. Tell me the last time you saw Gutho pushing up near the play the ball, or lurking behind the forwards, or taking a dart from dummy half? Or the dummy half and halves and fullback putting on a play there?
Defensive systems – I’ve been critical of that in our pods and in the replies above.
I agree, there was a startling lack of effort last night, but up to the Raiders game the players have given max effort for BA for certainly the last 2.5 years. Now in fairness to BA, the players may be listening to the outside noise more than him, but, I honestly think the players are simply exhausted with the all effort approach. I think the Raiders game was a turning point for the players. There is no question the performance against the Roosters was a reaction against Sterlo’s comments after the Raiders game. As for the defensive issues, I’ve lost all hope it is going ever gonna be fixed under BA, and if it’s not going to, then …..
And to clarify Bretts responses, he is not the typical , attack BA at all costs fan. I have seen how he has evolved from a person who supports BA overwhelming to one who is now questioning where we are going. Whilst I don’t always agree with his summations, they are usually measured and on point. I can’t help but join the majority of Eels fans in being completely disheartened.
Brett and Fathead. I hope that it is obvious that if we are calling out a defensive system that doesn’t work that it is just as obvious that it is up to the head coach to address it. We aren’t the only team to employ the compressed defence, and others get caught out to. However, the decision making and the energy levels are so low across the defensive line that it means that the system or the way we employ it doesn’t work. And if it doesn’t work for us then it’s wrong for us.
Attack and defence are both low, and each puts pressure on the other, a pressure that didn’t exist earlier in the season.
I think that the word “effort” is overly emphasised from the perspective of it being wrong to base games on it. You can tell that any team is switched on by effort areas. The same with players – the class players lift their team with effort on effort plays. Strings of tackles, multiple hit ups in the same set. Demanding the ball for a run or play. It’s core stuff.. We simply have to demand more effort and energy than has been on show over the last couple of weeks.
I wonder if BA was spoiled by Michael Jennings, who had an amazing ability to read the play and rush up to cut off ball movement. Always got the ball carrier or forced the ball back inside. When we debate if the defensive system is inherently flawed or just not suitable for his playing squad, the MJ allusion could mean BA never gave it enough thought when he had an incredible defensive centre at his disposal? I personally think the compressed defence is too risky, too easy to read and counter, and that BA just got lucky MJ plugged its natural deficiencies.
Either way, BA keeps shuffling the deck chairs with new wingers asked to jam in, but the system is broken. Watch that Manly game and their wingers hugged the sideline and waited. It’s unforgivable to keep doing the same wrong thing.
completely agree with core players being held to account & maybe we should look at Gutho being moved from fullback and just maybe to no6, Waqa to wing (I thought we should have put Waqa there year or so ago) hell why not give Dylan a crack at hooker. Hearing Brad in the press conference say “ I don’t know what to do” doesn’t fill me with confidence. Thanks for all you do lads.
Cheers Anon. I’m tipping some changes this week with blokes like Stone, Will Smith (starting), hopefully Hipgrave, and hopefully Carty to start. Whether there are players “rested” I’m not sure. Positional changes? Again not sure but I’d start Wilbur at dummy half.
The results won’t change our ladder spot, so we should use the time to find what will work best.
We have been tired, disjointed and apathetic for 6 or 7 weeks in particularly.
It’s very slim pickings but Next week a bit of a change is well overdue…
Gutho
Waqa – good finisher not a provider
Penisini – pick and stick
Opacic
Dunster
Smith
Moses
Makatoa
Lussick
Pappali
Lane
Cartwright
Marata
D Brown – great defender No9 kick 40/20s
N Brown -has been soft/tired/errors
Paulo – tired
Kafusi – HIA
I think we need Takihaho, Welch and Manu we need these types of players.
I think you’d get a few supporters agree with you. I’m definitely in the Waqa is a winger group.
Probably Waqa a winger, though they have been getting him early ball and he is a dangerous runner, just totally under-utilized. I sometimes apply the “Bellamy Test”. Would Bellamy play him at centre or wing and what would Waqa play like when used to his talents?
Prof, I think we can all agree that Waqa has a tendency to step back inside. I’ve wondered lately whether that relates to his change of sides this year, but from recollection he also did so on the other side. I’ve watched them work with him offensively and defensively with his footwork and positioning, and it just hasn’t quite clicked. I just think that someone so athletically gifted might just be better suited on the end of the line and we may get more from him in kick returns than we get from Sivo.
We may as well reset. It really doesn’t matter if we keep losing (except it’s killing us) we will still be 6th place and we should rest Paulo, N Brown and the others and also try and give the other guys an opportunity to show an improvement.
I would also move Gutho to No6 except I don’t really know who would be better at Fullback…
I have sort of given up on Dylan Brown, either his instructions are wrong or he’s playing within himself or both…He only has 2 try assists…that’s not a playmaker..He’s a great defender and would be better at no 9…He can then dart from dummy half and kick 40/20s to get us on the front foot…
Pete, I’m probably on my own here but I’d even be tempted to throw Dylan Brown into the centres. He’s a runner with some ball skills. He may benefit from more space and does have genuine pace. His defence out wide would be valuable. But we all want so many positional changes, can you imagine the chaos if we all got our wishes!
Watch the Storm game from early season, then watch Saturday’s game. Same coach and players.
Something has gone terribly wrong. Are Gutho and Moses in the thick of this turn around in form? Maybe there’s a lot more off the field to their hissy fits on the field. Regardless, I’d be offering Bennett half the leagues club.
Grunta, the team isn’t a shadow of the team from two months ago, let a.one the start of the season. They should have beaten the Riff not that long ago – and yes they were without Cleary but Parra was without Mahoney. That Penrith team without Cleary would have clocked up a big score against the Parra from the weekend. We have literally fallen apart since moving to Queensland, and that’s not an excuse because other teams are lifting. I’m critical about our defensive systems – that’s a coaching accountability. The missed tackles is a player accountability. But there is nothing about our play or our attitude that bears any semblance to the Eels of a few weeks back. That’s a look in the mirror time for the players.
There is only 2 reasons people dont do things, they either dont know or they dont care…..both can be fixed. The problem when boiled down is attitude, attitude of the players and the coaching staff. Plain and simple
Interesting scenarios regarding bringing in some of the younger players. As you say, do we bring them in and risk exposing them to poor attitude, or do we cut our losses and go through the motions for the rest of the year? Let’s just hope there are some difficult conversations being had at training this week and that sparks some better performances.
Errors, issues with execution, missed opportunities – that’s part of footy and we might get pissed off when it costs games, but this game was beyond errors. It was meant to be where the line in the sand was drawn. The old term of didn’t turn up probably isn’t strong enough to describe the effort and intensity. I would have liked a stronger selection response but we are back to a limited choices situation.