As the Eels get ready for the local derby this weekend, I started to think about the comparison between Parramatta and Penrith. Mitch got me considering the topic further when this week he tweeted about Penrith being the Eels little brother. Is that still true and if so, in what areas? What can the Eels learn from the Panthers and where are the Eels clearly in front? Ah, how the mind works, or doesn’t, after watching Thursday night footy at the pub with mates and getting a fortunate ride home. Love the $4.40 schooners at Baulkham Hills Sporto.
Nathan, Clint and Colmac do an outstanding job describing on field form, statistics and likely outcomes so I am going to focus on how both clubs are fairing off the field.
1) Player Facilities
Panthers
This week, the Panthers opened their $22m Academy. Fully funded by the Panthers Group, the Academy is a $22 million state-of-the-art facility located behind Panthers Leagues Club in Penrith. It will now become the full time training and development facility for the Panthers senior and junior squads, along with housing Panthers rugby league administration.
The Academy consists of two full-size all-weather training fields, two gymnasiums, hot and cold plunge pools, a 61-seat team auditorium, medical rooms and a number of recreational areas for players and staff.
They even got the Prime Minister to go to Penrith to cut the ribbon. Imagine good old Mal in Penrith! There must be an election coming up!
I heard Phil Gould on my favourite radio show, the Big Sports Breakfast, talking about how embarrassed the Panthers were with their facilities and that no one from professional sport would believe what they subjected their players to – amateurish at best. Most private schools have better facilities.
From the press release – impressive stuff you will agree.
“We believe the Panthers Rugby League Academy is now the best of its kind for any sporting organisation in this country,” Panthers Executive General Manager Rugby League Phil Gould said.
“It represents a huge investment by the Panthers in not only the game of rugby league, but the sporting landscape of Western Sydney as well.
“It should also be noted that this is more than just a factory for churning out rugby league players. 94 per cent of our contracted players, from the age of 16 through to our most senior NRL players, are actively engaged in schools, apprenticeships, trades or tertiary education courses. This facility caters for the welfare and education of all our players, on all levels.”
Phil talking taxation policy with Mal.
The Academy building spans approximately 3,400 square metres and the overall site approximately 40,000 square metres. Construction commenced in June 2015 and the predominantly local labour force of up to 100 people per day completed the project earlier this month – some three months ahead of schedule.
Congratulations to the Panthers this is an amazing achievement and I think it will underscore success at all levels for a long time. They have a video on their web site but i refuse to provide the link.
Eels
Old Saleyards has been lauded by the players and coaching staff alike. For the first time in our 70 year history, the players can train, condition, lift weights, eat, shower, meet and watch video reviews all at the same location. I even heard BA say on MMM that we have a wrestling room in there. A long way from Richie Benaud, the 70m field behind Pirtek and Granville Park before that.
I have spent quite a few mornings down at Old Saleyards watching the team train, usually accompanied by Sixties and the rest of the TCT crew. The fields are immaculate, better than any ground they get to play on.
For those that haven’t been down there, the facilities look like a combination of what must be 10 demountable buildings connected together. Memories of Northmead High come flooding back. There has been a request from the Members Council for a tour so we will see if that comes off and I will report in more detail.
As we know, the club has plans to make the facilities permanent, but they are reliant on federal government (or state, but unlikely with the stadium investment) funding to do so. There was talk of the Eels combining their requirement with another national sporting body, such as Special Olympics Australia, to build a stronger case for funding. We will see this play out over the coming months. There are also planning issues with local residents and other considerations to work through on site. At this stage from what I can tell, the permanent academy is still just a plan.
Interestingly, now that the players have decent facilities, the board is seriously developing the leagues club in an effort to diversify revenues away from poker machines and establish the club as a recreation centre of choice in a city that will soon be exploding with people. This looks like a sound strategy to me and will increase revenues and therefore possible investment into the football department. Have you seen the Parramatta skyline lately?
We will also have a new stadium for 2019 which will be the envy of every sporting team in Australia.
So it’s one up to the Panthers there who have had a stronger club for longer and self funded the academy on vacant land behind their club.
2) Members
Panthers
Today the Panthers have 14,988 members according to their web site. This places them in 8th position across all clubs and 5th in Sydney. Probably about where you would expect.
Last year, the Panthers finished with almost 20,000 members which was up significantly on the previous year of 16,000. It looks like the Panthers will struggle to exceed last year’s number and growth has slowed significantly. They need to win a few games to build momentum. They do have some fantastic offers for memberships though, including a jersey and six games for $199. The Eels membership team confirmed that these types of tactics are loss leaders.
Eels
The Eels cracked 20,000 members for the third year in a row on Sunday. This is quite amazing considering our on field performance over the last decade, particularly the last six years when we haven’t made the finals. We are 3rd in total and 2nd in Sydney behind the Rabbits. Our growth looks like this
2013 – 17,204
2014 – 20,312 – 16% up
2015 – 22,824 – 11% up
2016 – 25,000 *forecast – 9.5% up
It’s obvious to see why we are considered such sleeping giants. From 2012 to 2015 we won 32 out of 96 games, ‘won’ two wooden spoons, never got close to the finals, yet membership grew strongly. Goes to show the passion, support and hope every Eels fan possesses.
One up to the Eels on memberships. If we make the four and win the comp in the next couple of years (which we are a chance of in my opinion) we will challenge Souths for the lead position in Sydney and the Broncos will be in our sights. It’s now 1-1.
If this bloke told you to become a member, would you refuse?
3) Home Crowds
The table below provides home crowd averages over the last five years.
| Parramatta | Penrith | |
| 2015 | 14,596 | 11,554 |
| 2014 | 18,788 | 11,462 |
| 2013 | 10,910 | 10,337 |
| 2012 | 14,157 | 10,858 |
| 2011 | 12,896 | 12,229 |
A couple of key points to make. In each of the last five years, the Panthers have finished ahead of the Eels on the competition table. Only once, in 2014, has either side finished in the top 8 and that was Penrith in 2014. Western Sydney has been serial under performers!
Panthers fans do get see these ladies perform every home match.
The Eels crowd in 2014 was boosted by ANZ Stadium games against the Tigers, where we had over 50,000 attend, and the game against the Dogs where 30,000 attended. On the other hand, the Eels were wooden spooners (sorry for the reminder) in 2012 and 2013 and we still had higher averages than the Panthers. As soon as there is a sniff of improved performances, the Eels fans come out of everywhere to watch their heroes play.
Eels crowds and fan numbers put them ahead on this measure. Eels push ahead 2-1.
Eels fans getting excited
4) Board
I am going to keep this short for obvious reasons. There is a bit of a stench coming from Penrith with the sudden resignation of their CEO and an investigation by the government authorities. While we don’t claim to know what happened or what the outcome will be, and we aren’t suggesting any wrongdoing, something has happened that demands investigation. I am sure we will hear in time but I hope the Panthers fans don’t have to go through what we have been through. No fan deserves that, oh, unless they are the Dogs, Manly or Melbourne !
As for Parramatta, regardless of what happens up the M4 it is hard to believe we can be ahead on this count! 2-2
5) Football Department
Panthers
How fast things can change. A couple of years ago, Phil Gould was half way through his five year plan with his chosen coach, the impressive Ivan Cleary. They were playing some great footy and were unlucky not to be in the 2014 grand final. Something happened last year. Gould said Cleary looked tired and needed a break. He was sacked. In came Anthony Griffen from the Broncos. I think it is a big risk.
Phil laying down the law to Coach Cleary
Eels
BA and DA seem to have worked through their issues (if they ever existed, I don’t know) and have put together an amazing roster. Who would have thought we would have so many rep players at Parra when only two years ago all we had was some bloke called Hayne. Add those guys to the depth we have built in Wenty, the fantastic results and the improved performance of the 20’s and you can see the football department is functioning very well. Both teams were seriously diabolical last year, so much so that we swapped the coaches midway through the season. Some explanation is both teams were rocked by salary cap management and we lost many players in these grades forcing kids to play perhaps before they were ready.
The Eels have invested heavily in personnel, and so to have the Panthers.
Eels fight back 3-2.
6) Junior Development
Now this is the exclusive domain of Forty but I am going to give it a shot.
Parramatta and Penrith are the jewel in the crown of rugby league junior participation and development. The numbers are a bit rubbery, but there are around 7,000 and 10,000 players in each district respectively.
Panthers
The Panthers have won 7 Harold Mattews titles and 6 SG Ball trophies, both of which are second only to Parramatta. In the junior league, many of their ages groups go down to division 6 or 7. They have 22 clubs in their competition.
Penrith do an enormous amount of work in the community and through their junior programs. I found it difficult to find enough information during the couple of hours I spent researching this article. What I do know is that they should be proud about what they do, how they do it and they are getting better,
Eels
Parramatta spend over $1,000,000 per year on junior development. The net is spread far and wide with juniors coming from everywhere to experience the culture and coaching in one of rugby leagues greatest player factories.
Oh how Eels fans wish our absolute domination of junior rep football was replicated at the highest level. Here are the numbers:
Eels Honour Roll – SG Ball Cup
11 Premierships – 1966, 1976, 1968, 1973, 1983, 1987, 1988, 1991, 1993, 1999, 2007
Eels Honour Roll – Harold Matthews Cup:
18 Premierships – 1970, 1971, 1972, 1975, 1976, 1981, 1982, 1986, 1988, 1990, 1994, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2003, 2004, 2008, 2012, 2013
Another trophy in junior footy
At a Members Council meeting, DA came to speak to us about this topic and a few others. These were some of the major points.
He said that players flock to the Parramatta Junior system because it is world renowned in producing top quality players and many of them.
Player agents who represent players in the Parramatta development system will leave them there for much less money than what they can get at other clubs, just for development purposes. We turn out quality products. As soon as they are 18, they auction them out to the highest bidder. I have read many blogs and stories about us losing highly rated juniors. The facts are that we do lose between 6 and 8 players in the top 20 each year, but usually, none that the staff rate in the top five. Getting the ratings right is the trick.
Parramatta, being in the centre of metropolitan Sydney, is a disadvantage. You can basically play for Penrith, Dogs, Eels, Balmain, and Wests without having to travel too far, or drive from those areas into our junior league just as easily.
DA agrees with Phil Gould’s public comments about the need to focus on developing ball players and halves. These days, the focus on every clubs junior development is all about halves and fullbacks’. They are the jewels in any football team and our development effort will be going into kids who show potential in those positions. Perhaps our spine will be French, Doolan, Dargan and Kaysa in a few years? As we negotiate the retention of Corey Norman, our two halves could consume up to $2m of our salary cap. You would hate to be a ball playing prop who needs a few years of development.
In 2015, Parramatta had no players in the under 18 State of Origin, but 6 in the under 16’s including the QLD MoM, Travis Turnbull, who is one of the best juniors in Australia. Most of us know about him now and are hoping he comes on and stays in Sydney with us. Add halfback Troy Dargan and his halves mate Michael Doolan, and we have three of the best players in their position in Australia for their age group.
DA’s final comment was that the most important coach in junior football is the U18’s. Our 18’s coach is Nathan Cayless who is in his first year. A long time leader, world cup winner and the Eels youngest ever captain, his job is to get that them ready for first grade. We have typically employed well performed junior coaches from our District comp for Mats and Ball, but the club chose to do something a little more strategic with these positions. One of my colleagues made the point that in soccer, 13/14 is seen as the most critical age where the best coaches are employed.
Junior development isn’t only about representative players of course. Rugby League has a crucial role to play in society with fitness and health, and the Eels are always on the lookout to develop their fan base. Here are a couple of points detailing what goes on in that space
- junior participation has grown at 3% for the last three years. Biggest growth was in 2010 when everyone wanted to be Jarryd
- from the base of players, about 1000 kids per year leave and they are replaced by a new group of wannabe Semi’s, Kieran’s and Corey’s.
- in our district, we manage 180 schools from a region which goes from Blacktown to Cabramatta to Mt Prichard (thank god for Brett Kenny) to Ermington to Wisemans Ferry. Eels also run 30 schools in the North Sydney Junior League, so a total of 210.
- Boundaries are strictly enforced
- Eels currently employ 5 development officers.
- In the schools, the Eels run a five week program where weeks 1 and 2 are run by the Eels, 3 and 4 by teachers after coaching from the Eels and week 5 by the Eels.
- We also have a 1 day session available and a couple of other options.
- Each kid gets a NRL branded football, not Eels branded.
- School knockout days are huge. They have had to split the age groups to fit it in one weekend. This tells us that kids love playing league, but perhaps don’t play it every weekend.
Interestingly, the NRL provide funding and a football for each kid that goes through the program. As per above, the footy is NRL branded, not Eels. Yet to see a kid rock down to the footy or go to training wearing an NRL jersey. They wear team colours, they want to support a team, not the commissioners. The rabbits brand, eels, broncos and others are worth far more than the NRL brand. Parramatta employ these development officers, they wear Eels gear to the schools, everyone knows it’s an Eels delivered program but all the branding that the kids receive is NRL.
Further, there is no data capture of the participants. This means there is no personalised follow up, no measurement of the program in terms of identifying if one more kid plays footy as an outcome and no measurement of game attendance as a part of the program. No linking to Eels memberships or even merchandise sales as an outcome. It feels like this program has potential but it was rushed out the door as a defensive mechanism against soccer and ALF. You could do so much more with a game wide customer relationship management tool (sorry for the IT speak).
Due to our pedigree, our success over a sustained period, and our contrition to rugby league via our junior program, I have us ahead of the Panthers on this measure.
Eels ahead 4-2.
In summary, both clubs appear to be on the up in terms of facilities, members, and junior development. Both clubs need to improve their administration, home crowds and revenues if they wish to compete with the likes of Souths and the Broncos who have massive financial muscle.
Winning solves most of these problems.
With the right leadership on and off the field, I think both clubs can get there and make Western Sydney the rugby league powerhouse it should be and send GWS down the Hume to Canberra.
Thanks for having a look at my point of view and I always welcome your feedback.
Go the Eels !!
Chris.
Details courtesy of The Rugby League Project, NRL, Parramatta Eels and Penrith Panthers.
A big and impressive post mate (people need to forgive me for complimenting a fellow TCT author, but a post of this size and research is quite significant).
As Chris highlighted, the permanent structure at Old Saleyards will require government funding assistance. For now, though housed in demountables, the facilities are light years ahead of where the Eels were at just over 12 months ago.
The development officers and programs are a part of the NRL system. The 5 week program that Chris referenced is the “Backyard League” program, designed for both students and teachers to enhance their skills – teachers as deliverers, students as participants. I trained some years ago in delivering the program and used it for our schools PE program. The big plus for Parramatta is that the players themselves have been very good in making themselves available to the development officers for programs and events.
As I understand it, the AFL treats the smallest AFL participation by a child in their numbers. For example, the AFL will use school grounds after school for introductory skills programs and counts every child as an AFL junior participant.
Although we are about to get a brand new stadium development, we need to keep lobbying for the Parramatta Stadium to have a capacity of at least 35K. The original planning is budgeting for 30K with 3000 corporates. This means 27K for the punters! When we are planning for a stadium to last 50 years, this is not building for the future.
But to add to Chris’ match up, score a vote for Big Brother from me.
Very very impressive article. You blokes know your stuff and obviously LOVE the Club…
I have said it before – and I’ll say it again….This is the most comprehensive website on Rugby League – probably all sport – on the World Wide Web.
Nothing like it on ANY NRL Club…that’s for sure.
Congratulations…….
I hope you nominate the site for consideration at the Rugby League Media Awards at the end of the season. The quality, and ‘bones’ of the article make it a certainty to be recognised for its service to the game…
Over and above the call of duty….I am in awe…..
On behalf of the other blokes, many thanks Parra Pete. We report on the Eels because of our passion and because we know that many thousands of supporters such as yourself share that same passion. Our site can only grow and the support that we are receiving from loyal readers is helping to spread the word. For those who follow us on Twitter, and retweet and like our messages, thanks also.
Interestingly, I asked for feedback from NRL Media about our work, especially the filmed interviews, but they wouldn’t provide it. They said it is not their policy to comment on the work of fan sites, no matter how much such sites promote the game. So such recognition would be unlikely.
Great blog Chris very informative and a great read. I believe the best recognition a person can receive is from their peers and you gentlemen are doing a mighty fine job. It’s great to be able to talk just footy.
Unbelievable response from NRL Media unit….then again, it probably isn’t….
Someone ,might start asking NRL Media questions like “If an amateur website can satisfy the needs of the fans like TCT does for Eels fans, WHY CAN’T YOU??????”
I am a great believer that good honest hard work needs to be rewarded..just to keep the faith with the readership…Job satisfaction must be a huge part of your own reward…
As Paul Kelly wrote and sang “From Little things, big things grow”…
Small thinking people will always remain the same “SMALL MINDED”….
There is a good amount of satisfaction from the fans enjoying the site. Our thoughts have always been, if we were visiting a Parra site, what would we like to find there. It is what drives us as we look to develop what we do.
Thanks again Pete.
Fek me, that certainly is a wrap Pete,
Nice write up Chris, enjoyable read, cheers
Thanks Pete, appreciate your comments. Tell your mates !
I do….and I also tell my friends on the Rugby League Media…..
I do….and I also tell my friends in the Rugby League Media…..
Chris, a wonderful detailed report & thanks very much for doing it.
Sometimes when I read, or really lack of reading on the 1eeyed eels site good threads dealing with the Junior league I start to wonder about how much the majority of eels & likely the same with most if not all clubs, really see any value in the Juniors by virtually ignoring them & when others along with myself make a positive comment about a player who does not have the high profile of someone like Bevan French, there is a bit of a put down, one word came to a reply after I promoted some of the players was Rubbish. It really annoys me, especially when we are talking about signing stars on big money, yet our juniors are not good enough so it seems.
The put down also comes when we lose a good player to an opposing club, & when they show their ways, comes the blame game as to why we let them go, & just keep the other rating players. I would sincerely love to see more promotion of the juniors & the competition on the Eels web site, this may help turn some of the negatives around for those who do not seemingly rate them.
Likewise to see, both the jnr coaches as well as BA, give some interviews regarding them, Sure the top teams are the primary focus but, I really think its time to spread news about what is happening around the whole eels setup.
Another little bit that amazes me with the eels site is why this year there is no membership counter, last year the counter was updated fairly often & showed it climb to the 22000+, yet here we are already over that, & we don’t have the counter.
The Eels site did a great job over the pre-season with the videos and photos from training. From a fan perspective, they gave me something that I was looking for. I think that we may have provided some inspiration this season and, to be honest, we’d like to work in conjunction with the official site as we think that some of our pieces would look good on their site (just as they use Ladies Who League).
A challenge that we face is in the breadth of what we cover. We could have links to all current Eels media, but 1ee does that well (and we all visit that site for such links) So we concentrate on our original posts and that certainly keeps us busy. Thanks again to everyone for the positive feedback.
Colin you will find the membership numbers on the Parraeels website, just below the Eels emblem, there is a blue and white bar just near the middle of bar there is Membership click on that and the numbers are there, currently 20,106.
Thank you Chris for another outstanding article.
Thanks Keeneel. All we need is a good season on the field and with the new stadium coming we will be in great shape off the field. Oh, and all that cap / board stuff finalised in our favour !!!
Colin when you compare the juniors that we have lost to the juniors the Panthers haven’t retained, it says something I reckon. Tupou and Taufua? They lost Wade Graham and Blake Austin. They have more juniors in their first grade squad than we do, but they are mainly emerging players like Moylan, DWZ, Blake and some young forwards. Their halves and hooker are from elsewhere, just like us.
The club has chosen not to build the profile of junior players. The belief is that they are under enough pressure without throwing them to the media wolves. Many of them need significant media and communication training. Ultimately, very few make it to first grade as you know. When the club thinks they will make it, and they are stable off the field, they start building their profile. We saw that last year with French. The club has done very little with Twal or Fuimaono who were the other two youngsters to do the full first grade pre season.
Great read Chris. Well analysed, and I applaud the comments on the various areas of each club.
I find Gould somewhat a myth, and I know I’m not going to make too many friends for this. I found his behaviour towards Ivan Cleary somewhat arrogant, and showmanship. Ivan Cleary is a terrific coach, and I think a bit of ego got in the way, but I do stand corrected. I do like Griffin.
Anyway back to the blog, I’d like to point out that We at Parra have AFL down the road, and share with soccer at our venue, and Penrith have been lucky to have no one nearby except the afl at Blacktown too. Therefore their club can put in all efforts into the league team, and that’s great if you’re a league fan. I’m always amazed at their lack of crowds, considering getting to the ground seems easier than us at Parra, as pennies have the league club huge car park.
I think that a challenge for Penrith historically was that in the past, many people moved to the outer west for housing affordability. This meant that there were vast numbers of supporters of other clubs in their area, particularly Parramatta. It took them a while to establish a fan identity. I’m not sure what sort of numbers identify as Penrith fans now, but the massive number of people who identify as Eels fans, country-wide, need to be drawn into the games. The best way – WINNING!
As a child growing up in Northmead in the 1960s and early 1970s, most of my mates supported other clubs – mostly Souths, Manly and St George. I wonder why! The clubs will always be in a prime position to create a new generation of fans from successful eras.
To me there is a need for the NRL to provide funding to clubs to develop juniors. Why should Parra, Penrith, Broncos, etc spend $1m a year on juniors only for other clubs such as Manly and Roosters in particular to cherry pick the best juniors at no cost to themselves. Then you have the situation where Souths have no junior costs (picked up by Souths Juniors) and they spruik how they have made a profit with their football club. Certainly not a level playing field.
Glenn its an age old argument isn’t it. Parramatta and Penrith support an internal draft where existing first grade players enter if they want to change clubs or if they are no longer wanted. Both are dead against an external draft which is the AFL system. Under that scenario, 18 year olds enter the draft and can end up anywhere after being nurtured for years. That is a huge disincentive to develop juniors.
Another idea I have heard is that each NRL club gets a country Group league to develop. That way we divert some resources and focus to country league who have provided such wealth of talent for so long. How you would decide who gets what is a challenge and so is the funding. Unfortunately, there is only so much money.
Great article Chris
Very enjoyable read. A bit surprised that we lose 6 to 8 juniors in the top 20 who have been through our system each year. Perhaps the answer is that if you want to train and play in our system, you must sign an agreement that Parramatta have first and last rights to retain you in regards to any contract?